¾¢ÕãÄ÷ ¯À§¾ºõ  16-20:Tirumular Upatesam  16- 20

Upatesam 16.

137

«¼íÌ §ÀÃñ¼òÐ «Ï «ñ¼ï¦ºýÈíÌ
­¼í¦¸¡ñ¼Ð; ­ø¨Ä ­ÐÅýÈ¢ §ÅÚñ§¼¡
¸¼ó¦¾¡Úõ ¿¢ýÈ ¯Â¢÷ ¸¨Ã ¸¡½¢ø
¾¢¼õ¦ÀÈ ¿¢ýÈ¡ý ¾¢ÕÅÊ ¾¡§É

adangku peeraNdattu aNu aNdanjsenRangku
idangkoNdatu; illai ituvanRi veeRuNdoo
kadantoRum ninRa uyir karai kaaNil
tidampeRa ninRaan tiruvadi taanee

ÁÄ÷óРŢâóÐ À¢ÈÌ °Æ¢ì¸¡Äò¾¢ø «¼í¸¢ ´ÎíÌõ ­ÂøÀ¢üÈ¡¸¢Â ­ùÅñ¼òÐû «¾ý ¯ÚôÀ¡¸¢ ¿¢üÌõ «Ïì¸Ùõ «ùÅ¡§È «ùÅñ¼òÐû ¦ºýÚ «íÌ «ó¾ «¼ì¸ò¾¢ø ¾ý ¸ðÎ ¿£ì¸¢ ­¼í¦¸¡ñ¼Ð ±ýÀÐ ­ó¾ô À¢ÃÀïº ¯ñ¨Á.  ­¨¾ò ¾Å¢÷òР «ÏÅ¢üÌ «Æ¢Å¢ø¨Ä §À¡ýÈ §Å¦ÈøÄ¡õ ¸üÀ¨É¸§Ç. «Ð§À¡Äò¾¡ý ¯¼õ¦ÀÛõ ¸¼ò¾¢ø ¸ðÎôÀðÊÕìÌõ ¬ýÁ¡ «¾ý ±ø¨Ä¡¸¢Â ¯¼õÀ¢¨Éì ¸¡½¢ø «Ð ¾¢¼õ¦ÀÈ ¯Ú¾¢Â¡¸ «Æ¢Â¡Ð ¿¢ü¸¢ýÈÐõ ­¨ÈÅÉÐ ¾¢ÕÜòÐò ¾ÄÓÁ¡¸¢Â ¾¢øÄÂõÀ¾¢§Â ¡Ìõ.

At the dissolution of this vast universe  that unfolds  and remains, the atoms  that remain the component parts also gets dissolved at that point into primordial stuff. This is the truth and such ideas as the atoms are indestructible and so forth are not truths. So is the case with the anmas that ordinarily inhabit a body that functions like a cauldron. When the LIMIT for such inhabitations is sought it will be found to be the firm and undying Tillai where BEING enacts His DANCE

adangku peeraNdattu : the vast universe that gets dissolved

aNu aNdanjsenRangku idangkoNdatu: the atom  goes along and become dissolved just as the universe

illai ituvanRi veeRuNdoo: what can be the case other than this?

kadantoRum ninRa uyir karai kaaNil : if the anmas enclosed in cauldron-body sees its limits

tidampeRa ninRaan tiruvadi taanee : it will see that it is the firm Tillai where remains BEING dancing

Commentary:

Right from the ancient days there has been extensive  cosmological studies by the Tamils as part of their metaphysical investigations. We can see the beginnings of this in Sumerian astronomy and then in the  Babylonian  that was a continuation of it. In the  Indian subcontinent in such verses as Suuriya Namaskaram and so forth we can see that there was also  a deep understanding of cosmology. We also find such insights in many Agamas both in Sanskrit and Tamil. There are many texts that are specially devoted to this. Certainly there have cropped up  many different views. The most important  view that differs from the one available here is that of Vaishesikas who along with Jains propounded the view that there are a number of different types anus, i.e atoms and that they are INDESTRUCTIBLE and that all the objects in the world are generated out of them. The Saivites  have been challenging this view saying that anything with form and structure and hence with an identity can only be transient and  in the end they will also be dissolved into the Primoridal Energy, out of which , in the first place, the atoms are generated.

This is the  view that is being described here by Thirumular in the first two lines  and claims that the contrary views cannot  be true. Now he links this with the destruction of FINITITUDE of the anmas, or psychic entities. The body it assumes at every birth is a product of Karma, desposits of action-outcomes of the births and which goes, as a cluster of mantra-complexes , to the formation of the biological body it acquires at the present birth. But in the evolutionary progress what is the LIMIT for this acquisition of  a body, an inhabitation?

All the bodies that are karmic in origin will get dissolved on the way, with the soul getting larger and larger bodies as the FINITUDE gets destroyed. The body assumed may also become from physical to nonphysical i.e the  mantra-bodies, the mantrat tirumeeni. The anmas live like the celestial beings present everywhere like electromagnetic waves. But this is also NOT the limit for even such bodies are NOT BEYOND DISSOLUTION.

The final body and abode is the TILLAI, the primordial GROUND where the whole Cosmic Dance get enacted by the movement of the FEET of BEING, the shaking of the Tatvas of Vintu and Natam , by the permutations and combinations in infinite number of ways of which the cosmos itself and everything in it is produced. When the anma finally settles with this  PRIMORDIAL GROUND  itself as its body, the LIMIT to this body-transition is reached. It is a FIRM body for there is NO dissolving that anymore for that which dissolves all else,  remaining because of that, itself undissolved


Upatesam 17

128

§º¡õÀ÷ ­ÕôÀÐ Íò¾ ¦ÅǢ¢§Ä
§º¡õÀ÷ ¸¢¼ôÀÐï Íò¾ ¦ÅǢ¢§Ä
§º¡õÀ÷ ¯½÷× ÍÕ¾¢ ÓÊó¾¢¼ï
§º¡õÀ÷ ¸ñ¼¡÷ «îÍÕ¾¢¸ñ à츧Á

coombar iruppatu cutta veLiyilee
coombar kidappatunj cutta veLiyilee
coombar uNarvu curuti mudintidanj
coombar kaNdaar accurutikaN tuukkamee

¯Ä¸ôÀüÚ¸¨Ç¦ÂøÄ¡õ §À¡ì¸¢Â º¢Å»¡É¢¸û Å¢ÕõÀ¢ ­ÕôÀÐ «¸î Íò¾ò¨¾ò ¾óЦ¸¡ñ§¼ ­ÕìÌõ Íò¾ ¦ÅǢ¢§Ä;  À¢È ¯Ä¸¢Âø ¸¡Ã¢Âí¸Ç¢ø ®ÎÀ¼¡§¾ ¸¢¼ôÀÐõ «ó¾ Íò¾ ¦ÅǢ¢§Ä. ­ôÀÊôÀð¼ º¢Å¡õÀø ¨¸Åó¾¡÷¾õ »¡Éõ ±øÄ¡ ÍÕ¾¢¸ÙìÌõ «ôÀ¡Ä¾¡¸¢Â º¢Å»¡É§Á¡Ìõ ±ýÀ¾¢ý ¯Ä¸òÐ ±îÍÕ¾¢¸ñÏõ ¬÷ÅÁüÚ ­ÕôÀ÷.

The genuinely illuminated individuals will have their Being in the Space of Absolute Purity and they EXIST too forever in this Purity not wishing anything worldly and toiling for it. The UNDERSTANDING is also that which is the LIMIT of all scriptures viz.  the Absolute Understanding and hence enjoying this they will NOT be interested in any of the scriptures.

coombar iruppatu cutta veLiyileeee:  the genuinely illuminated have their Being in the Space of Absolute Purity

coombar kidappatunj cutta veLiyilee: such people also EXIST in such a Pure Space

coombar uNarvu curuti mudintidanj : their  understanding is the LIMIT of all the scriptures

coombar kaNdaar accurutikaN tuukkamee : and because of this they will NOT be interested even in the scriptures.

Commentary:
 

The metaphysical life has its own weaknesses and one of them being a fanatical attachment to a particular scripture and extolling it beyond measure because of that attachment. This is a sign of metaphysical immaturity and the source of bitter strives among the religious. No scripture can enclose the Absolute Illumination in its entirety within the body of scriptural utterances for it is BEYOND time consciousness and hence Language as such. But this does NOT mean the scriptural texts are IRRELEVANT , no certainly not. What Thirumular says in this verse is that we must study as many as we can and TRANSCEND ALL to reach the LIMITS, the Curuti Mudinta idam, the UNDERSTADING the scriptures PRESUPPOSE a LIMIT to it. . Like an arrow the scriptures  show a BEYOND and this  is the understanding that is beyond but at the same time the Ground of all scriptures that must be sought after by the genuinely metaphysical.

And this means a OPENESS and receptivity towards ALL scriptural texts, a desire to reach the LIMITS that is embodied there and which is possible only if we severe our fanatical attachments to a particular scripture.

Such are the Civanjanies and such people once already there will have thair EXISTENCE founded upon it. For it breeds a PURITY lacking in any kind mind narrowing attachments  which makes the mind IMPURE and hence breed rivalries,  a combative spirit and hence a lot of stress and strain.

They become supremely INDIFFEENT to the enthusiastic claims of the sectarian people  because they LIVE in PURITY and all these sectarian outburts will appear supremely childish and mischeivous and  totally inconsistent with a life in purity. They would value Being in PURITY  more than  indulging in scriptural studies as they have TRANSCENDED that stage of Being and attained the BEYOND.

The "tuukkam" is not real sleep but rather INDIFFERENCE. If one already enjoys the WISDOM, then the study of scpritures for this purpose become unnecessary.


Upatesam  18

129

àí¸¢ì ¸ñ¼¡÷ º¢Å§Ä¡¸Óõ ¾õ ¯û§Ç
àí¸¢ì ¸ñ¼¡÷ º¢Å§Â¡¸Óõ ¾õ ¯û§Ç
àí¸¢ì ¸ñ¼¡÷ º¢Å§À¡¸Óõ ¾õ ¯û§Ç
àí¸¢ì ¸ñ¼¡÷ ¿¢¨Ä ¦º¡øÅÐ ±ùÅ¡§È

tuungkik kaNdaar civalookamum tam uLLee
tuungkik kaNdaar civayookaum tam uLLee
tuungkik kaNdaar civapookamum tam uLLee
tuungkik kaNdaar  nilai colvatu evvaaRee

¦À¡È¢Ä¢Âô À¡÷¨ÅÔõ áÄ¢Âô À¡÷¨ÅÔõ ¸¼óРѾĢÂô À¡÷¨Å ¾Õõ «È¢Ð¢ø àì¸òÐ «Ûâ¾¢¸Ç¢ø
º¢Å»¡É¢Â÷ ¸¡ñÀ÷ ­ÐŨà Á¨È¦À¡ÕÇ¡¸§Å ­Õó¾ º¢Å§Ä¡¸õ  ¾õÓû§Ç§Â ­ÕôÀÐ ;  «ó¾
º¢Å§Ä¡¸ò¾¢ø ¬Æ ¬Æ «ØóÐŧ¾º¢Å§Â¡¸Óõ ±ýÚõ ¸¡ñÀ÷;  ­ùÅ¡È¡É º¢Å§Â¡¸ò¾¢ø «ØóО¡ø
ÅÕŧ¾ ¦ÁöÂ¡É º¢Å§À¡¸õ ±ýÚõ ¸¡ñÀ÷.  ­ôÀÊ Å¢Çí̸¢È «È¢Ð¢ø ¸¡ðº¢Â¢ý àì¸ò¾¢ø  ­ôÀÊ ¸ñÎ
Á¸¢ú¸¢ýÈ º¢Å»¡É¢¸Ç¢ý ¿¢¨Ä¨Â ¦À¡È¢Ä¢Âô À¡÷¨ÅìÌ §Áø §À¡¸¡¾¡÷ìÌ  Å¢ÇíÌõ Ũ¸Â¢ø ¦º¡øÅÐ
¾¡ý ±ùÅ¡Ú?

The genuine civanjaanies  capable of transductive perceptions that are beyond the sensorial and hermeneutic will enjoy
SEEING the Metaphysical World; will immerse themselves deep in it and  understand that that is genuine Civayoga;  and
will experience Bliss Supreme   by  delving deep into these  transductive experiences.  How is it possible to explain their
essence for  those who are incapable of transductive perceptions because locked up in the sensorial and hermeneutical ?

tuungkik kaNdaar civalookamum tam uLLee: the civanjnanies will SEE the Metaphysical World within themselves
through  transductive perceptions

tuungkik kaNdaar civayookaum tam uLLee : the civanjanies will  practice genuine Civayoga  within themselves

tuungkik kaNdaar civapookamum tam uLLee: the civanjanies will experince Bliss Supreme within themselves

tuungkik kaNdaar  nilai colvathu evvaaRee : how can  the transductiove experiences of the civanjaanaies be
communicated to those incapable of such perceptions?

Commentary:
 

Here emerges again another dimension of Agamism -- the need for  DIRECT   experiencing of the Metaphysical World
called here the Civalogam.  This world is  ALREADY THERE within everyone of us but only that it remains beyond our
comprehension and hence  only grasped as a CONCEALED PRESENCE only because we REMAIN metaphysically
BLIND.  It is NOT that this metaphysical world is a fiction or simply a mental consctruction, a fantasy and or   a Mittai as
Samkara would say, a sumperimposition upon what is a homogeneous light, the Brahman.  Such intellectual  struggles are
there only because the Metaphysical Eyes remain closed and we are INCAPABLE of opening it  by our own intelletual efforts
and what not.  Going beyond the sensorial and the interpretive-hermeneutic is possible only when  we are GRACED by
BEING, only when , to speak metaphorically here, the Third Eye is opened up.

The  Siddhas or genuine Civanjaanies are such people , i.e with the Third Eye opened up  and hence capable of
Transductive Pereceptions, the capacity to SEE directly  what remained hitherto  HIDDEN or  CONCEALED and hence
the Unconscious. This hidden world is finally lighted up and the civanjanies WITNESS for themselves directly these
metaphysical elements and through that begin to UNDERSTAND the mysteries surrounding existence and which
constitutes the enigmas and paradoxes of life.

The genuine Civayoga is NOT  the practices of various kinds of bodily postures , controlling and regulating the breath  etc.
The Civayoga is getting the Third Eyes opened up and attain the capacity for transductive perceptions and having
attained exploring  the metaphysical  world and going deeper and deeper into it unafraid of the   catastrophic  changes it
brings about in personality. For this  exploration destroys all attachments to the world including various sectarian identities
and biases hence it is only for those brave souls who are capable of withstanding the DESTRUCTION of self identities  and
EGO and capable of genuine purity. And this PURITY and the genuine FREEDOM  it affords, metaphysical freedom that
makes one genuinely AUTONOMOUS and hence without any  tribalistic social identities  is the source of Civaboogam,
the Bliss of absolute purity.

In being FREE of all identities -- religious national racial linguistic and what not , in being PURE in this sense there is a
happiness, the Civabogam


Upatesam 19

130

±ùÅ¡Ú  ¸¡ñÀ¡ý «È¢× ¾É즸ø¨Ä
«ùÅ¡Ú «Õð¦ºöÅý ¬¾¢ÂÃý ¾¡Ûõ
´ùÅ¡¾ ÁýÚû ¯¨Á¸¡½ ¬ÊÎï
¦ºùÅ¡É¢ü ¦ºö ¦ºØíͼ÷ Á¡½¢ì¸õ

evvaaRu kaaNpaan aRivu tanakkellai
avvaaRu arutsceyvan aatiyaran taanum
ovvaata manRuL umaikaNa aadidunj
cevvaaniR ceyya cezunjcudar maaNikkam

±ùÅ¡üÈ¢Ûõ ´ôÀ¢øÄ¡¾ ãÄ «õÀÄÁ¡¸¢Â ¾¢ø¨Ä ÁýÚû Å¢óÐÅ¢ý §¾Å¢Â¡¸¢Â ¯¨Á ¸ñÎÅì¸,  ¦ºùÅ¢ÂÅ¡É¢ý ­ýÛõ º¢Åò¾ ¦ºØïͼ÷ Á¡½¢ì¸ ÅÊÅ¢ø,  ¬¸§Å ¸Õ¨½ §ÁÅó¾ ¿¢¨Ä¢ø  ±øÄ¡ ¬ýÁ¡ì¸¨ÇÔõ¾£ì¨¸ ¦ºöÐ Íò¾õ ¦ºöÔõ  Ũ¸Â¢ø ´ù¦Å¡Õ ¬ýÁ¡Å¢üÌõ «Ð «Ð ¾õ «È¢Å¢üÌ ¸¡Ïõ ±ø¨ÄìÌò ¾¸»¡É즸¡¨¼ ¿øÌÅý ¬¾¢ÂÃÉ¡¸¢Â º¢Å¦ÀÕÁ¡ý .

BEING as the supremely radiant  flame ,  redder than even  the evening sky and absolutely pure like the  precious crystal,under the stimulations of Umai, the WOMAN of Vintu ,dances the DANCE in the assembly of the incomparable Tillai, adance in which out of supreme LOVE for   all the  creatures ,  each  taught the Divine wisdom strictly in accordance with theLIMITS to understanding that each creature sees within itself.

evvaaRu kaaNpaan aRivu tanakkellai: how each creature sees a limit to its own understanding

avvaaRu arutceyvan aatiyaran taanum: The Primordial BEING would grace wisdom  strictly in accordance with theLIMITS of  each one of the creatures;

ovvaata manRuL umaikaNa aadidunj:  BEING dances tha DANCE with Umai onlooking in the  incomparable  arena ofTillai

cevvaaniR ceyya cezunjsudar maaNikkam : BENG redder than even the red evening sky and  radiant like the pure crystal

Commentary:
 

This verse outlines the reason why Agamism is immensely tolerant  and has opted for philosophical paganism which is
NOT the beginning of metaphysical/ religious thinking but  rather  very matured  phase of it. This is the WISDOM that has
become so characteristic of Agamism after millennium of efforts to UNDERSTAND the infinitely complex religious
phenomena where gods after gods have come and gone and along with them many cults and religions.  It also addresses
itself  to the question of iconoclastic tendencies, the abhorrence of  idol worship that we see in some religions including
some Saiva sects that went by the name of Anu Saivism and in which Idol worhip was strictly prohibited.

Thirumular chides all these  and allowing for the presence of enormous number of archetypal presence of BEING and the
possibility that this may be endless in historical life , also gives a REASON for all  these openness and tolerance. For it is
a FACT that the creatures, the human beings,  are LIMITED in their capacity for understanding and hence as a pedagogic
principle it becomes NECESSARY to come to their level in order to  INCULCATE some sense of the Divine. Some
individuals are BEASTLY in their psychological make-up and  abstract thinking or even for that matter   some kind
religious thinking is BEYOND them. The dogmatic thelogicians will condem them to hell fire  or force them into some
practices which are MEANINGLESS to them and  which are followed by  them out fear and rather in an uninvolved
mechanical manner.

BEING is NOT such an arrogant theologian but rather a SUPREMELY  KIND and  extremely capable of TEACHER. He
would COME DOWN to be within the limits of understanding of each individual and present Himself in the archetypal
forms most suited to the individual hiding HIS essence as the Deep Structure of all these manifestations. The
presentational forms evoke a sense of wonder,  enable the individual to experience the SACRED in his own way  and  the
Deep Structure within each pulls them even higher. Any individual inresponding as sacred to something or other
experiences  in a distant and perhaps   in a crude and intuitive manner BEING and hence spiritualised in some sense.

Leaving to BEING to  inform and reform each individual  is that which underlies the OPENNESS of Agamism with
respect  to multiplicity of deities it allows,  for each one these deities is BEING Himself presenting Himself thus for the
purpose of spiritualising some individuals  in way that is COMPREHENSIBLE to them , in a way  they  UNDERSTAND
BEING

Here also emerges the relevance of the HERMENEUTICS of UNDERSTANDING that Agamism promotes.  What is
important is NOT sectarian identities  verbal adherence to dogamas but rather the UNDERSTANDING of BEING for it is this
that finally redeems the individual.

And another   point here is that it is an act of KINDNESS or Supreme LOVE. And it is here that the WOMAN comes to the
picture.  BEING is moved to DANCE and  be actively present as the most RADIANT principle in the world , pulled out
from  TOTAL ISOLATION which is also possible for BEING (the Sattan) and made to be present   in the world, dancing the
dance of BLISS only  because  it is the WOMAN who implants the LOVE SUPREME that  would   promote the Dancing
presence of BEING.

This is another metaphorical way of saying that BEING-as-WOMAN is BEING-as-LOVE and   that the whole drama of
this vast cosmos and the happenings in the life of the creatures  are there as such only because of this DANCE,
pedagogical processes  of various kinds in which ignorance is destroyed and understanding is developed.



 

Upatesam 20

Á¡½¢ì¸ò Ðû§Ç Áø¾î §º¡¾¢Â¡ö
Á¡½¢ì¸ò Ðû§Ç Áø¾ Á¡¼Á¡ö
¬É¢ô¦À¡ý ÁýȢɢø ¬Îó¾¢ÕÜò¨¾
§À½¢ò ¦¾¡Ø¦¾ýÉ §ÀÚ¦Àü È¡§Ã

maaNikkat tuLLee markata coothiyaay
maaNikkat tuLLee marakata maadamaay
aanipon manRinil aaduntirukkuuttai
peeNit tozutennna peeRupeR Raaree

­ó¾ ¯¼õÀ¢¨É Íò¾ï ¦ºöР Á¡½¢ì¸ì ¸øÄ¡¸ Á¡üÈ, «¾Ûû§Ç Áø¾§º¡¾¢Â¡ö º¢Å»¡Éõ Å¢ÇíÌõ. «Ð¦À¡ØÐ Á¡½¢ì¸òЧǠ º¢Å§Ä¡¸õ  ±ýÚõ «Æ¢Â¡¾ Áø¾ Á¡¼Á¡ö  Å¢Çí¸¢ «íÌ    ¸¡½ ÅÕõ ÌüÈÁüÈ ¬É¢ô¦À¡ýÈ¢ø  ­¨ÈÅý ¾ý ºò¾¢§Â¡Î ¬Îõ  ¬Éó¾ò ¾¢ÕÜò¨¾ ¾Ã¢º¢ì¸ ÅÕÅ÷.  ¯ñ¨Á¡¸ ­¨ÈÅ¨É ±ùÅƢ¢ø §À½¢ò ¦¾¡ØÐ «Åý «ÕÇ¡§Ä§Â ­ó¾ §ÀÚ ¦ÀüÈ¡÷¸û ­ó¾ º¢Å»¡É¢¸û ±ýÀ¨¾ ¡ý «È¢§Âý.

When this body frame is made pure like   the  faultless crystal, inside it will begin to shine the Absolute Illumination as the undying Flame.  At that point the Metaphysical World will appear as the    house of precious stones within which will appear the Golden Hall and they will witness the Dance of Bliss  Siva dances with Sakthi. I am not clear  how the Civanjanies prayed  to attain this  as a blessing of BEING.

maaNikkat tuLLee markata coothiyaay: Like the undying Flame inside pure crystal

maaNikkat tuLLee marakata maadamaay: like  the everlasting house of  precious stones inside the pure crystal

aanipon manRinil aaduntirukkuuttai: the dance of Bliss that Siva enacts with his Sakthi in the Golden Hall

peeNit tozutennna peeRupeR Raaree:  How did the the civanjanies prayed to attain this as the blessing?

Commentary:

One of the central insights that  sustains Saivism  is the notion of   BEING -as-Dancer, the Siva Nadaraja  and it is seen here as a blessings that accrues only to those who are pure in heart. The purity of mind is more important than anything else for the DIRECT WITNESSING of how BEING in fact  is present in the world. BEING is there all the time VISIBLE to the PURE in heart and INVISIBLE to those who are not so.  BEING is a concealed reality only for the ignorant whose eyes are covered  up and made blind by the prejudices that condition their existence.

The Crystal,  MaaNikkam,  is brought in here to drive in the point that the soul must be purified and made to shine forth like a pure crystal. Then the mind and body becomes  the Civalogam itself, the metaphysical world itself,  the House of Precious stones meaning the everlasting and undying  ABSOLUTE WORLD, the world that REMAINS unchanging despite the  fluctuations the historical world suffers, including the Pralaya, the total withdrawal of the Manifest universe.

Inside this indestructive and permanent world lies the Golden Hall, the Hall of supreme happines and because of which it is described as Golden. And there one can witness the DANCE of Bliss  that BEING enacts  with His consort and which gives structure and form to the whole of the manifest world, the phenomenal world inside which  our history is written. This is the FINAL VISION for there is NO MORE a beyond behind it. It is a CLOSURE of  all the existentiall struggles, that which puts an END to our  metaphysical struggles of all kinds.

Thirumular  is wondering looking at the GREATNESS of this witnessing, how has this become, for some at least,  a reality,  what kind prayer that they practiced to be graced with this vision etc.



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